tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9827454.post113469848015248799..comments2023-10-23T12:23:54.134-05:00Comments on Larry James' Urban Daily: Another Republican for JesusLarry Jameshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06124477733714017000noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9827454.post-1135103294496816872005-12-20T12:28:00.000-06:002005-12-20T12:28:00.000-06:00Brandon, I agree with you concerning the "will" of...Brandon, I agree with you concerning the "will" of the church. Beyond the lack of a force of will there is the sheer scale of the issues involved. <BR/><BR/>For example, all the churches in America could not solve the affordable housing dilemma facing the nation. Working people who lack skills to command a wage high enough to allow them to find decent housing need help at a scale and scope that only government can address. <BR/><BR/>Thanks for the post.Larry Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06124477733714017000noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9827454.post-1135085179839803702005-12-20T07:26:00.000-06:002005-12-20T07:26:00.000-06:00M. Tapie-Our disagreement isn't over ideals. "whe...M. Tapie-<BR/><BR/>Our disagreement isn't over ideals. "whether or not the government provides the most effective forms of poverty relief". I would wholeheartedly embrace the demolition of the entire welfare state if it was demonstrated that churches would fill in the gap. <BR/><BR/>I just don't think the will is there in most churches. Evidence? Larry posted an article back in the summer that contains some facts that I think bear out what I'm talking about:<BR/><BR/>http://www.harpers.org/ExcerptTheChristianParadox.html<BR/><BR/>I won't post the article to save space, but the gist is that by most empiral evidence we as Christian Americans give less and that outcomes in American society are worse than other, less-Christian countries.<BR/><BR/>It's not a failure of ideas as I know there are some great approaches coming from Christian sources. It's a failure of will.<BR/>I have no doubt that if our major religious institutions society took on reducing poverty as their #1 (or even #2 or #3) priority that we would see real improvement in outcomes in America and in the world. <BR/><BR/>If you think that our Christian instiutions really are focused on dealing poverty, then we can just agree to disagree.<BR/><BR/>BrandonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9827454.post-1135053598241151652005-12-19T22:39:00.000-06:002005-12-19T22:39:00.000-06:00Brandon,I appreciate your response to my comment a...Brandon,<BR/><BR/>I appreciate your response to my comment and your sharing of personal experience.<BR/><BR/>I am not too sure about the "fact" that proponents of my view have "never...really demonstrated the will to really address poverty concerns in any meaningful way." I think you would be hard pressed to provide justified evidence for this. There are many people working for poverty relief that do not believe the government should be the first responder. This is why there exists a heated debate over the issue (to read about people who really address poverty concerns in meaningful ways from a number of angles visit the Pew Forum's website on Religion and Social Welfare at http://pewforum.org/social-welfare/). <BR/><BR/>It may be true that the churches and Christian universities you have known do not care about poverty relief. This begs the question as to whether or not the government provides the most effective forms of poverty relief. <BR/><BR/>Furthermore, it begs the question about how well other churches and institutions (those outside your experience), independent of the state, can provide effective poverty relief. I believe there is much evidence for approaching poverty relief with a broad array of methods that include govt. as well as the private sector. For more on this approach see Peter Berger and John Neuhaus's To Empower People: From State to Civil Society.mthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00175360506805356285noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9827454.post-1135019666326815802005-12-19T13:14:00.000-06:002005-12-19T13:14:00.000-06:00M. Tapie-I certainly understand your perspective. ...M. Tapie-<BR/><BR/>I certainly understand your perspective. I used to believe it whole-heartedly. The argument that the argument is merely one of appraoch (i.e., public vs. private) I know is a sincere one. <BR/><BR/>However, it's hard to escape one fact: proponents of this argument never have really demonstrated the will to really address poverty concerns in any meaningful way.<BR/><BR/>Don't get me wrong, I know that there are a number of people who volunteer in church pantries and the like and provide assistance to those in need. Thank God for them. <BR/><BR/>The difference is one of imagination. In my lifetime, the Christian right has identified certain evils in society as problems they want to solve: abortion, homosexuality, objectionable content on TV. They attacked each of these as <B> problems </B> to be <B> solved </B>. When it comes to poverty however, the effort is more prefunctory. How many people can truly say that their church is even asking the question "how can we make things better for the least in our society?" I'd venture to say the percentage is pretty small. <BR/><BR/>I grew up in a conservative church and graduated from a Christian university. My take-away from these institutions was a focus on getting myself "saved" to be sure, and what I learned regarding the poor was that we needed to show them how to sin less so that they wouldn't be in the shape they were in. Maybe this just says more about me than the institutions, but I think the evidence indicts us all. <BR/><BR/>Brandon ToombsAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9827454.post-1134982202064268762005-12-19T02:50:00.000-06:002005-12-19T02:50:00.000-06:00Interesting speech. And it is even more interestin...Interesting speech. And it is even more interesting to hear it come from a Republican. I truly desire for people to have equal opportunities and access to needed resources. Nevertheless I believe that Bill assumes government should be too large a part of the moral equation. <BR/><BR/>I agree that the laws of any society are influenced by morality and a religious understanding of human beings. However, I also believe that most political/policy questions are matters of prudence--meaning the question "what works best?" is usually more helpful and relevanat than "what is more Christian?" The Bible has a lot to say about how to treat people--it says little about when to coerce them. Especially on issues like poverty relief which has to do mostly with economics. Political questions on abortion or murder are quite clear; it is easy to see that the state has a clear mandate to prevent the killing of the innocent. Using force is what the state does best. <BR/><BR/>But what is not so clear is a biblical mandate for the state to take from person A and then give person A's belongings to person B. Indeed, Christ said, “Much is required from those to whom much is given.” This is very true. But Christ did not say "Much is required from those to whom much is given...and this 'much' should be given to the government." That is a bit of a leap. <BR/><BR/>Most Christians do in fact want to help the poor. The problem is that many people disagree on how to best accomplish helping the poor. Do we help the poor by paying monies into to the state? Or do we help the poor by setting up private poverty relief systems? Or is it a mixture of both? Many lean toward socialist policies and some lean toward libertarian policies. ANd both sides have their arguments. What would defuse a lot of the tension among left-leaning Christians and right-leaning Christians regarding this issue is to try and help explain the best policies or "what works best" rather than what is perceived to be the most Christian policy. What is the most effective form of charity? What makes charity work? These are the questions that are most important. <BR/><BR/>I personally believe that the answer to much of our country's dilemna with poverty relief comes from providing incentives to the civil society sector. Civil society is the network of institutions that serve as a buffer between the state and the individual: they are things like the family, small businesses, schools, associtions, neighborhood councils, etc. Pouring money into the government is not the most effecient answer nor do I believe an expansive god-like state is biblical. One cannot be charged with being less Christian simply because he or she believes that the govt. should not always be the first-responder for poverty relief.mthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00175360506805356285noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9827454.post-1134966383583595682005-12-18T22:26:00.000-06:002005-12-18T22:26:00.000-06:00...sorry for the double post...What Mr. Ratliff di......sorry for the double post...<BR/><BR/>What Mr. Ratliff discusses is certainly a struggle for me, and, I think, the majority of American Christians. How do we reconcile our capitalistic values as Americans with our faith and obedience to the love and generosity that is taught in the New Testament? In fact, one could argue the 1st Century church lived as a group of socialists, sharing their resources amongst themselves.<BR/><BR/>My belief is that, as Christians, we should lean more towards the socialistic tendencies to help meet the physical and urgent needs ("urgent needs" are not mutually exclusive to "important needs") of people around us.<BR/><BR/>My fear is that if the United States continues to move more towards socialism, that we will lose our dominance in the global market place and eventually not have the resources to dispense to those in need. Some might argue that that scenario would take many decades, and we should only concern ourself with immediate needs. Others might argue that capitalism creates efficiency and an increase in quality and quantity of goods and therefore is a pattern of good stewardship.<BR/><BR/>As I stated, I'm not sure where I stand on the politics of this issue. I do know this: I want to be like Jesus. Jesus healed, fed, loved, and saved people. I plan to continue to try to reach out and help those whom I see in need.Eric Livingstonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06771209613921239363noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9827454.post-1134966156102256482005-12-18T22:22:00.000-06:002005-12-18T22:22:00.000-06:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Eric Livingstonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06771209613921239363noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9827454.post-1134952594807088042005-12-18T18:36:00.000-06:002005-12-18T18:36:00.000-06:00Thanks, John for this correction! I enjoyed the e...Thanks, John for this correction! I enjoyed the entry to which you refered us. Amazing how these things get started. I can remember this quote from Jr. High! All the best.Larry Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06124477733714017000noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9827454.post-1134771094012916852005-12-16T16:11:00.000-06:002005-12-16T16:11:00.000-06:00Tremendous speech--thanks for posting it.Tremendous speech--thanks for posting it.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14182852753097707529noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9827454.post-1134770815628650352005-12-16T16:06:00.000-06:002005-12-16T16:06:00.000-06:00That is probably one of the best descriptions of t...That is probably one of the best descriptions of this phenomeon that I have read. Very well done. I've actually re-posted the link and a portion <A HREF="http://www.fishkite.com/2005/12/14/1155" REL="nofollow">on this blog in the comments section</A>. Interesting conversation.Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03783872965205325401noreply@blogger.com