They're at it again in Austin.
You can read all about it in yesterday's edition of The Dallas Morning News ( "One State Under God," by Karen Brooks, A1, Sunday, April 22, 2007).
Defending God and "His values" can be tough work in such a secular place as Texas and in such a "godless environment" as the halls of our state house, right? Serious business protecting the "In God We Trust" and "under God" heritage of the Lone Star state.
But, never fear, God's cause has lots of help from lots of courageous warriors this session!
Why, this session has produced bills dealing with offering Bible classes and prayer in public schools and declarations of the state's faith in public places. On more than one occasion, members of the legislature have risen to proclaim and affirm Texas' unshakable commitment to Judeo-Christian values, while, on at least one occasion, protesting the involvement of a Muslim cleric who had been invited to offer a prayer in the Senate chamber.
I always find these debates and such efforts curious and a bit amusing.
Curious, because the lawmakers shouting the loudest for keeping God and the values of our Judeo-Christian heritage at the center of the public square are also those most opposed to extending justice, opportunity and assistance to the poor, the weak and the marginalized--actions and policies that are central hallmarks of the faith of both Jews and Christians through the centuries (as in "Judeo-Christian values").
Any careful study of the voting records of many of our legislators comparing their stances on "values issues" with their votes on major, social policy matters, such as the Children's Health Insurance Program (CHIP) or Medicaid or prison reform or any number of Health and Human Services issues, undoubtedly would reveal an inverse correlation.
Amusing, because those making the most noise for God don't seem to know what God cares about most.
You can read all about it in yesterday's edition of The Dallas Morning News ( "One State Under God," by Karen Brooks, A1, Sunday, April 22, 2007).
Defending God and "His values" can be tough work in such a secular place as Texas and in such a "godless environment" as the halls of our state house, right? Serious business protecting the "In God We Trust" and "under God" heritage of the Lone Star state.
But, never fear, God's cause has lots of help from lots of courageous warriors this session!
Why, this session has produced bills dealing with offering Bible classes and prayer in public schools and declarations of the state's faith in public places. On more than one occasion, members of the legislature have risen to proclaim and affirm Texas' unshakable commitment to Judeo-Christian values, while, on at least one occasion, protesting the involvement of a Muslim cleric who had been invited to offer a prayer in the Senate chamber.
I always find these debates and such efforts curious and a bit amusing.
Curious, because the lawmakers shouting the loudest for keeping God and the values of our Judeo-Christian heritage at the center of the public square are also those most opposed to extending justice, opportunity and assistance to the poor, the weak and the marginalized--actions and policies that are central hallmarks of the faith of both Jews and Christians through the centuries (as in "Judeo-Christian values").
Any careful study of the voting records of many of our legislators comparing their stances on "values issues" with their votes on major, social policy matters, such as the Children's Health Insurance Program (CHIP) or Medicaid or prison reform or any number of Health and Human Services issues, undoubtedly would reveal an inverse correlation.
Amusing, because those making the most noise for God don't seem to know what God cares about most.
Here's one for the books. One bill introduced in this session would ban chemical dependency treatment clinics within 1,000 feet of a church. The same bill bans prostitution within that same distance from a house of worship.
Hmmmm. Maybe I misunderstood the real meaning and purpose of faith, the Torah and the Gospel. Who is protecting who from whom?
Hmmmm. Maybe I misunderstood the real meaning and purpose of faith, the Torah and the Gospel. Who is protecting who from whom?
Such a bill would make it less convenient for church goers to visit their family members recovering in such facilities!
As for prostitution, I thought that was against the law in Texas already? And, never mind that Jesus would have welcomed such women to his table and inside his band of merry disciples. And by the way, why wouldn't a church consider housing a drug treatment center?
Of course, politicians simply reflect the will and worldview of their constituents. And that is the problem. It's not the legislators that are the main issue--though a bit of independent leadership would be refreshing.
Here's the issue: Somehow lots of church folks have missed the major point of the faith.
Of course, politicians simply reflect the will and worldview of their constituents. And that is the problem. It's not the legislators that are the main issue--though a bit of independent leadership would be refreshing.
Here's the issue: Somehow lots of church folks have missed the major point of the faith.
Throughout the Bible, it is very clear that caring for the poor, the weak, the alien and the oppressed is much more important to God, and those who speak for God, than are personal expressions of religious devotion. In fact, according the Bible, such expressions of faith are always considered hypocritical and counterproductive in view of how the poor are treated by people who claim to be devoted to God.
In view of the clear ethical and moral priorities of the holy writings of Judaism and Christianity, and considering the nature and opportunities afforded us in our constitutional democracy, every value proposition related to personal piety and religious devotion would be best left to individuals to apply as conscience directs.
At the same time, those values relating to the quality of life we craft together as a state community should be worked out in the public square to the benefit of the weakest and most needy among us. Such would be the response of a faith-filled state.
People of faith are not called to fight the world or withdraw from it or shut it out or despise it. My faith tells me we are called to love it, serve it and welcome it to a God of love, light, hope and joy.
In my view, when people of faith walk in the way of the faith, there will be no need for publicly endorsed prayers, school-sponsored Bible study (unless it is as literature) or religious statements etched in stone or carved in wood.
People of faith are not called to fight the world or withdraw from it or shut it out or despise it. My faith tells me we are called to love it, serve it and welcome it to a God of love, light, hope and joy.
In my view, when people of faith walk in the way of the faith, there will be no need for publicly endorsed prayers, school-sponsored Bible study (unless it is as literature) or religious statements etched in stone or carved in wood.
Our lives will be our sermons and everyone we seek to influence will hear us loud and clear without even a word being uttered.
Well said, my friend!
ReplyDeleteI think you would enjoy the book God in Public by Mark Toulouse. It came out this past November and is supposed to be excellent in its treatment of the areas around school prayer, the ten commandments in public, etc as they relate to faith in the public sphere. At any rate, I appreciate this post, Larry. Thanks for keeping us focused.
ReplyDeleteI kept thinking of things I could say to add to this post, but came up empty, so here it goes:
ReplyDeleteAmen!
Amen!!
ReplyDeleteLarry,
ReplyDeleteMost Republicans aren't opposed to helping the poor. Just because they don't support the same legislation that you don't, doesn't mean they don't care about those people. Its comments like that that cause many people to overlook what you are doing for the poor, and to write you off as a partisan leftist, or whatever names they could come up with.
Maybe you actually feel that way. That people who don't think that massive government redistribution of wealth is either a. the job of the government, or b. an effective way to combat poverty must hate the poor. I think that's a stretch, and I would say to you, before you make judgements about people, you should get to know them. You're constantly telling suburbanites that they need to get to know poor people before they go ordering them around. I think you should get to know some people who are fighting for justice for the poor but who believe that government only perpetuates the problem. There are plenty of them out there.
Justin, thanks for your post.
ReplyDeleteI think you miss my point just here. My point has to do with the moral values that members of the Texas legislature, both Democrats and Republicans, are attempting to bind as law on the public--things like prayer in schools, Bible study in schools, displays of the 10 Commandments, religious language, etc. And, yes, at the same time, from both sides of the political aisle, opposing sound, proven programs that do in fact lift the poor. The statitical evidence is overwhelming.
I was not trying to be partisan. The problem is one shared by both parties. Maybe I wasn't clear.
And, by the way, I know suburbanites. I grew up there. I am one! Rich and privleged beyond belief!
justin - like larry already said... i didn't see him use the words democrat or republican until you brought it up.
ReplyDeleteyou ever been to texas? you know the politics here? my guess is you dont.
larrys probably 30 years older than you. i think you need to start giving him credit for knowing a little something.
not saying you don't know anything -- but you sure act like you know a lot more than everybody else.
Larry,
ReplyDeleteYou are the salt of the earth and the light of the world. Thanks for the thoughts.
Let the dialogue continue until the will of God is done on earth.
Larry Wishard
I'll have to take up for Justin on this one. If state sponsored prayer, display of the ten commandments, etc are dubious then why wouldn't state sponsored Christian benevolence be the same? It seems to encourage a sense of entitlement over a sense of gratitude. Is it wrong? No, but its not the best choice. A grassroots movement of Christians providing services without government assistance would be the best choice. Grace trumps entitlement.
ReplyDeletePhil, just a couple of things wrong with your idea that "grace" is better than entitlement. 1) A notion of entitlement for the weak is among the surest, most practical examples of grace. 2) If a public entity is not going to administer aid, who can? The scale is far too large for another institution or group to do so in this nation. Take health care and insurance for example, one of the matters Larry took up. Your idealism is grand, but ineffective. 3) Finally, and I am no Bible scholar, it seems to me that texts like these actually use the language of "entitlement" as they advise us what we should do in regard to the poor--note the word "right" or "rights": Prov. 29:7; 31:5, -9; Jeremiah 5:28.
ReplyDeleteCould it be that our politics trump our appreciation for the clear values of the Word of God? Ironic, huh for an "in God we trust" people like us!
My Old Testament class is in Zechariah tonight. It's interesting. The prophet preaches a message that the people must follow. Violating the message is what sent their ancestors into exile. And, warns the prophet, the same tragedy can happen again. What was the message?
ReplyDelete"Dispense true justice, and practice kindness and compassion each to his brother; and do not oppress the widow or the orphan, the stranger or the poor; and do not devise evil in your hearts against one another" (Zechariah 7:9-10).
Frank,
ReplyDeleteThat was a message to a Jewish Theocracy. Surely that has something to do with the command of the text.
We are not a Christian nation and never have been. And the economy of ancient israel was a little different than ours.
How much does the Bible say the poor are entitled to, by the way? Is the Christian thing to do to give them 300 bucks a day. That would take care of feeding their family, housing, health care, etc.
I'm not saying we can't try and make the government act more like a citizen in the Kingdom of God. But what I am saying is, there are smart people out there who think that government intervention, in many cases, perpetuates the problem. Or even beyond that, too much government spending will bankrupt the economy, leaving everyone equally miserable. Are we just trying to find that line? Where is the tax rate that will cause business owners to board up shop and live on their savings?
I don't know of anyone who is saying "let's destroy the poor" but I know people that think, for economic reasons, that redistribution of wealth is not going to fix the problem.
And Larry, I was not trying to come off as a know it all or a jerk. And maybe I'm too touchy, and maybe its cause I don't know Texas politics, but I gotta believe that most informed readers would draw the same conclusions about your statement as I did, even though you never mentioned a particular party.
Just like if someone on the right had said "These politicians claim to be followers of Jesus, but they stand up for the right to kill 8 month old fetuses" you wouldn't think I was talking about Republicans.
Justin, as always, I appreciate your post and your time.
ReplyDeleteAll I know is that the poor are suffering in the nation. And, their numbers are growing. I also don't see many churches--and there are some great exceptions, thankfully--falling in to really lift people. We can debate theory as we have time. But poor children are going without healthcare and adequate housing and millions of hard working people don't earn enough to make a living.
All the while, Circuit City lays off workers who make $10-$15 an hour and replaces them with people who now make $8 an hour. Market solution, right?
"informed" - so anyone who dont agree with you is an idiot?
ReplyDeleteyou always repeating the same line justin, talk about something new
last time i checked, israel wasnt a theocracy, they had kings, huh? that makes them a monarchy
and different type of government doesnt change the words of jesus/god
your too obsessed with government, get over it
Justin,
ReplyDeleteYou can't be serious. Should the Civil Rights Movement be reversed because its leaders were informed by what the Bible said? Our Constitution appeals to "Nature's God." Translation = From the get go, this nation's identity and policies have been informed by some sort of faith. And could it be any other way? The fact that some people think that, e.g., Zechariah's words are from the Lord doesn't disqualify them from making public policy based, in part, on that very conviction.
I don't know how Israel could have been any more of a theocracy. God basically ordained their kings. He handpicked them. He hand picked the nation. Even when it wasn't behaving like a theocracy, it was one.
ReplyDeleteAnd to the informed comment; I wasn't saying that in order to say that only the people I agree with are informed. I'm simplying saying that I think the average person who pays attention to politics would understand what he's saying.
And Frank, I never said anything about reversing anything. I'm saying that if you don't think that you would enjoy our situation if our government were islamist, or any other religion, then you should think carefully about how christian you want the government to be.
I'm not saying the government shouldn't help people. I am saying that the government all ready spends a ton of money and I think that if we continue to increase our spending, and raising tax rates, we'll go bankrupt and no one will have anything.
I don't remember who said it, but they said it right
"Democracy can only exist until the people realize they can vote themselves the treasury"
justin, spending on social services is down, way down in Larry's state and down in the nation. tax cuts are the deepest in history. . .spending on a war based on lines (see the pat tillman story this morning???)from the start is why we have such a deficiet. . .it's not the poor who are bankrupting the nation. . .
ReplyDeletesorry. . ."a war based on lies" is what i meant to say
ReplyDeleteisrael was only a theocracy until the people demanded a king -- the only two you could even possibly count as being chosen by god are saul and david -- even saul, god caved into the people and gave them what they wanted. david was only one who god truly picked, the rest were from biological succession
ReplyDeletegod had nothing to do with the kings of israel, god giving them kings was giving up his theocratic control
again, you dodged the question like a typical republican, regardless of kind of government israel had, what does that have to do with the command of god/jesus to care for the poor and restore their rights???????????????
So Justin, let me get this straight: When the Bible reveals the heart and mind of God, if the primary audience was different from us, then the words don't count.
ReplyDeleteSounds to me like a situation where a body of old scripture could never function as authority for anyone.
First off, tax cuts nearly always bring in more revenue to the federal government. That argument is ridiculous. And beyond that, if we didn't have a war, they'd be spending it on something else. Republicans and Democrats spend to keep themselves in power. Republicans spend on defense to keep themselves in power, and democratcs use class warfare and the welfare system to keep themselves in power. Its all about power and none about Jesus.
ReplyDeleteSecond, I disagree with the war in Iraq. I disagree with war in general. I know its going to happen, but I don't support it, even if it seems the cause is just. Because I don't believe christians car participate in or support violence. And to think that we wouldn't be spending up a storm if there weren't a war is ridiculous.
Third, I'm not a Republican. I don't vote. I fall into the ideological line of David Lipscomb and James Harding.
Fourth, Frank, you didn't set anything straight. That's not what I said at all. We have to be careful quoting scripture without looking into the cultural context of what was being said. To do otherwise is an irresponsible reading of the bible. Contrary to popular fundamentalist belief, the bible was written to a certain group of people in a certain time period, and in order to fully understand it, we've got to know what was going on at that time.
Someone could make the same argument about God's character by any of the number of verses that call people to be put to death for insiginficant unlawful acts. Do we question that, or because its showing the "character of God" must we listen without question.
you still dodge the question...
ReplyDeletewhat is so cultural about the bible that makes helping the poor NOT one of god's primary concerns??? why do we NOT fight for their rights???
please use a normal translation when quoting verses, not the justin culture bible version -- i dont think can trust that one
What are the poors rights?
ReplyDeleteAre they different than the rights of the non poor?
How much money does a poor person have a right to under Christianity? Do we have to give them 50 dollars a day no matter what? How about 100 dollars a day? Or 200?
Is it anyone's right to have the absolute best medical coverage offered?
How about the safest vehicles that have been created?
What about homes? Does everyone have a right to a 3 bed 2 bath home or is a 2 bed 1 bath sufficient?
If you can spell out for me clearly the what rights the poor have, then we can talk. But the bible doesn't spell out what their rights are, because it was written to people in a certain time period. Should we always try and help the poor? Absolutely. I don't think anyone would argue with that. But our society is to the point where things that we consider needs, aren't needs at all. What do we do with that?
"How much money does a poor person have a right to under Christianity? Do we have to give them 50 dollars a day no matter what? How about 100 dollars a day? Or 200?"
ReplyDeletequestions show where you heart is... you ask how much you got to do to make god happy -- bad question
start with verse:
Luke 3:11. And [John the Baptist] would answer and say to them, "Let the man with two tunics share with him who has none, and let him who has food do likewise."
yes culture - tunic -- the rest is for you today
god saying you have more than other people, you give to them -- make things equal -- god wants community, fellowaship, you cant have it when you unequal with people
not about how much you give -- but find community, seek equal with people -- thats not cultural -- that is command from god
Thanks for the continuing theme of "he doesn't agree with my policy, so he hates poor people" schtick.
ReplyDeleteThat philosophy isn't there anon. You are reading into something an idea that was yet to be invented. Where does it say you have to make everyone equal in the bible? And if it did say that, I would have to question it because, no matter how much you want it, people are not equal. You could work til you drop at trying to make people equal through monitary channels, making everyone have the exact same house, same furniture, cars, etc. But then you still have smart people and less intelligent people. The smart people will end up ahead. They have an unfair advantage. They are not equal. And no law can change that.
If you believe the bible says that sorta marxist stuff, then we should probably just end the conversation here, because I don't think we're gonna go anywhere.
Oh, I see now, Justin.
ReplyDeleteThe rich are smarter, better and more advantaged as individuals because of their own, personal, individual superiority. Right?
Nothing in the system is stacked to their advantage.
This helps me.
The rich are rich because they are superior, smarter, work harder and don't make stupid choices.
The poor on the other hand are inferior, dumb, lazy and basically sinful. Thus, their poverty.
This helps me. I'm sure it helps others as well. Nice set up for more paternalistic, colonialism. And, now we don't have to worry about unfairness or privilege being any problem at all from a systemic point of view!
Thank you!
you miss my point
ReplyDelete"god saying you have more than other people, you give to them -- make things equal -- god wants community, fellowaship, you cant have it when you unequal with people"
you can't read????? I say it's not a balance sheet, god wants community, relationship -- that cant happen unless you share, be equal with people
NO BALANCE SHEET - read me!!
you are whitewashed tomb -- you act like you know everything and try make other people look stupijd who dont agree with you
you have too much pride, and you pretend you know all answers -- god call, he want his authority back from you
where bible equal justin?
ReplyDeleteright here, you did not read my what i said:
Luke 3:11. And [John the Baptist] would answer and say to them, "Let the man with two tunics share with him who has none, and let him who has food do likewise."
Somehow this discussion has moved well into the personal realm, and I don't think we're accomplishing a thing by making character judgements about each other.
ReplyDeleteDifferent Anon's, if any of you want to continue this discussion, my email is open at mundiejc AT gmail DOT Com.
only personal is that you avoid questions and turn people words on them -- answer and no personal
ReplyDeletei give you verse, you forget it
you never answer question... where your view in bible...
you call christian, but dont even talk how your view in bible -- where???
give answer!
I left my email address anon. You can gladly contact me there. I feel no need to list the personal attacks you made on me and my faith. If you want to continue this conversation, please email me.
ReplyDeleteyou not read me! no personal attack!
ReplyDeleteyou answer my question?
why you not answer in public, always want to go private?
answer?
Ok... I've been trying not to feed the trolls. I've offered my email address for you to contact me.
ReplyDeleteI really take issue with the "white washed tomb" and then the comment calling me prideful was just great, and then to top it all off, you basically said that I think I'm god.
Look anonymous. This has gone absolutely nowhere. I don't know if you're not a native english speaker, or if you just have trouble communicating via text, but you have been incredibly judgmental. I'm asking legitimate questions, and when I ask questions you tell me that my heart is in the wrong place. You have not had a christian attitude anon. In any way shape or form. You don't know me from Adam. All you know is my name. I don't even know who you are. How is it in any way like Christ to verbally assault a fellow believer, and to make judgments on the state of his heart without having ever met him.
I'm disappointed in your immaturity. Please email me. I do not want to respond in this forum any more.
Justin, I am Anonymous 5:19 a.m.--you didn't respond to my post at all. Please have a look and get back to me. . .
ReplyDeletejustin, you keep talking about personal attacks -- i not make more, but i ask why you still not answer my questions...?????
ReplyDeletei ask questions, and you ignore them total
i give you verse, you ignore it -- why you not answer me???
i ask you to explain where bible says things you say and you dont answer me, why???
start answer questions, i am tired you not answering
besides, i only say mean things because you insult people, make them feel stupid, like you know everything
ReplyDeletewe can talk, but stop make people feel stupid
My name is Walter Taylor besides the identity as anonymous. I just want to address what seems to have become a debate about government intervention on behalf of the poor vs. other solutions. Like all the great debate where two seemingly opposing ideas carry validity, the truth is probably in the middle. The poor need both government and non-government entities working on their behalf. Government is not perfect but it is big and powerful. Had it not been for the most sweeping governmental intervention in the past 50 years (LBJ's Great society--i.e., Medicare, Medicaid, Civil Rights, Head Start, etc.) where would be? Yet, we should not expect for government to have the responsiveness, flexibility, and compassion that can be exhibited by the smaller entitities such as churches and faith-based or simply non-profit organizations. Government can be a friend to the poor it just can be the only friend. Yet, if government neglects the poor, it seems that others too will either follow suit or become overwhelmed and overcome by all that ails the poor. Blessings, Walter.
ReplyDeleteGreat thoughts, Walter!
ReplyDeleteanon 5:19,
ReplyDeleteYou put words in my mouth, which is why I didn't feel the need to respond to you, but since you asked civilly, and with decent grammar, I'll go ahead and answer you.
I understand that certain people grow up in better situations with which to be "successful" in our country. I think that's fairly obvious. The point I was making, to crazy anonymous, was that if you're goal is to try and make everyone equal, you will fail. Because not all people are equal in ability. God loves us all the same. And I should love all people the same (even though I'm having trouble loving crazy anonymous right now) but the fact is that not every human being is created with equal abilities.
My brother is getting his degree in civil engineering at Auburn. I dropped out of college to go to real estate school. We are both intelligent, and have simliar standardized test scores, but he has a superior work ethic to me, which means he got better grades in school. He also has different interests than I do, which is why I would rather take a history or politics class and he'd rather take calc 4.
My point, which apparently I didn't make clear the first time, was that our job isn't to come up with some standard at which everyone should live. There's nothing biblical about that. But we should always be willing to give to those with less than us when a situation arises. Its not a call for some massive government entity to determine that no one should make more than a certain amount because they will make things inequitable, so we've got to constantly work to make everyone even.
That's not Christianity. Its communism.
so because my english is not so good, i am crazy???? how many languages do you speak? maybe you crazy for lording over people...
ReplyDeleteyou did not read what i wrote... if you did, you would see me have said NO BALANCE SHEET... there is numeric idea of equality, then concept
god not about numbers, he about community -- COMMUNITY -- you cant read me??? god wants COMMUNITY where people EQUAL -- not same bank account, but equal -- you cant understand that??
how you miss that from what i said???
i am not crazy -- stop put yourself above others -- read and talk, no preach at people
Please help me all of you who post: let's try to keep our comments and opinions non-personal. I know that at times it is hard to remain objective when we believe something very strongly.
ReplyDeleteBut, my hope for this space is that everyone might have their say without getting personal. Let's just apply the Golden Rule, be clear and respectful and move on together.
In my view, taking any other approach will not advance understanding or change opinions.
It would also help if everyone would use their name when posting comments.
Thanks!
Maybe we're having a language barrier or something here, anon.
ReplyDeleteEveryone is equal in the eyes of God. And as a Christian, I should view everyone equally as a human being. My point was merely this: you cannot make everyone equal in a physical sense. It is impossible. Even if somehow you could make it where everyone earned the same income, lived in the exact same houses with the same luxuries, drove the same cars, etc. There would still be people who are at an advantage because of intelligence, or physical strength, or any other thing that has much to do with genetics.
I'm not trying to make balance sheet. All my questions about "how much is enough" were merely rhetorical. When people start clamoring for equality, it would be good to know what they mean. For some, it means equality through the law. For others, it means everyone has the same amount of stuff. I wanted to know where ya'll were coming from, because I think its important. If you are pushing for some sort of equality not found in the bible (like somehow making everyone have the same wages, housing, etc) then I would say to you that this is not only impossible, but non biblical. The poor have rights to be viewed the same as anyone else, and they shouldn't be purposefully held down (which was definitely the case in bible times and still is occasionally now, though I don't believe its nearly as systemic). But this whole idea of "from each according to his ability to each according to his needs" mindset is anti biblical, in my opinion, in that it requires force to initiate. Force never changes hearts. Love does. And that's my position on the matter.
I didn't set out to start a debate on here. I just wanted to point out to larry how some of his readership that is of the Republican/Conservative variety (of which I used to be) might perceive what he said. Somehow that turned into a firestorm of trying to call me out for things perceived in my writing.
Anon, I apologize for calling you crazy. It wasn't justified and never would be, but you got me pretty steamed when you insinuated that I had a God complex, and that I'm a white washed tomb. You don't even know me, or my situation. The most you could know about me is from reading my blog, and there's not enough on anyones blog to make the character judgments you made. But like I said, that doesn't justify what I said. I apologize.