Larry, this Sojourners organization that you promote--I hope it doesn't have anything to do with another organization of the same name which is made up of mostly retired Christians who go around assisting churches in various ways. To bad they have the same name because the "Social Justice" one that you often mention is a very radical organization that sympathies with Marxist revolutionary movements especially in the Third World.When one talks about social justice it reminds me of Karl Marx.
Chris, while I am glad to have your voice here, please stick to the truth. Jim Wallis is not a Marxist,nor is Sojourners I can assure you. Just order the study guide and you will see that it is filled with scripture references and challenging information.
GO figure!In 1979, Time magazine hailed Wallis as one of the "50 Faces for America's Future." That same year, the journal Mission Tracks published an interview with Wallis, in which the activist evangelical expressed his hope that "more Christians will come to view the world through Marxist eyes."
Larry, please get real. Remember the devil can quote scripture.In college Wallis founded the anti-capitalist magazine called "Post America." In it, Wallis called for the redistribution of wealth and government managed economics. This anti-capitalist worldview expressed in religious terms as a quest for "social justice."In 1971, Wallis moved his Post-American operation to Washington D.C. and renamed it Sojourners.Wallis has taken a consistently anti-American stance. He even criticized the refugees fleeing Vietnam as people who just wanted to "support their consumer habit in other lands."Larry, I am truly bothered at you consistent support of Marxist ideology.
Chris and all. Read the biblical passages and let us know how you think that they stack up against the values of our greed run amuck capitalism unfolding before our eyes even as we speak. Start with James 5:1-6. Then, do a google search on the Year of Jubilee in the Hebrew Bible. I'm sick of you pulling down "loaded" words and taking quotes out of context to bash people with whom you don't agree. Wallis may have said all of what you say, but give us the full context so we can move beyond your negativity (and propoganda) and then reflect on how 30 years may have sharpened his focus. I, like Larry, know one thing about Jim Wallis. He stands up for the poor. The problem is he sounds way too much like Jesus for lots of people. Larry, keeping putting it out there!Bobby Lee
Chris, I ask myself, again: ignorance or knavery?You have again employed bifurcation and the straw man and now have flagrantly employed the ad hominem. If you are not sufficiently self-aware to know that you are employing these techniques or if you have not discovered what these fallacies are, then you should discipline yourself to be quiet until you know enough and are self-controlled enough to avoid them.If, instead, you are employing them knowingly because they achieve the effect that you desire, then you need to repent. You need to go to your elders and confess: "I have acted with wicked hatred toward my neighbors and my fellows in Christ. I have failed to control my tongue. I have twisted the truth to tear others down and to gain power for myself."Professed Christians cannot live this way if they are to continue in a covenant relationship with God. They cannot claim allegiance to Christ in one breath and destroy peace in the next. They cannot serve two masters.Jeff W
Chris:Assuming your quotes are correct, perhaps Jim Wallis could have changed his mind. If Gov. George Wallace from the radical right, a committed segregationist who later apologized for this previous words and views, can change his mind, perhaps we should allow that Jim Wallis might do the same. You have quoted Wallis from 1971, a time I recall from history as being rather tumultuous and prone to radicalism. Perhaps Wallis is capable of growing and changing his views. After all, isn't all of Christianity premised on the idea that people can change? If you're going to quote Wallis, how about giving us something from the last ... oh ... 20 years?
Well imagine that!A 60's Marxist is now a saint, only 40+ years older. My knock on Wallis, and other pretenders, is that they will use a Christian message to further their political agenda. Ultimately, many are caught up in this "false prophecy" belief system - one that is neither "AUTHENTIC OR PROPHETIC"!
Anon. 12:37It's interesting that you didn't say I was wrong---you just hope Wallis has changed his mind.It's very easy to research his ideas on the computer. Go for it. The truth is, he never met a communist regime he didn't like.
Anon 1:34 and Chris - I take it from your comments you do NOT believe Wallis (or presumably anyone else) can "authentically" change their minds. Sad. I hope you're not taking up a church pew on Sundays with that outlook on life.And Chris, I said "assuming" your quotes are correct. I only became aware of Wallis about 10 years ago. I don't always agree with him, but I find him to be very reasonable and find no whiff of "Marxism." I didn't check your quotes because they're from 1971 and I don't care. What he says and believes NOW are much more important to me.
"Marxism" is such a loaded term, but okay, Chris, I'll ask the obvious question, have you read anything Karl Marx ever wrote? Then, with Bobby Lee, I have to ask where do you find capitalism, as he says "greedy, run amuck" capitalism, justified in the Bible?Of course, when Marx wrote The Communist Manifesto in 1848, there was no institutionalised communism of the Soviet variety. Many of his principles, including the community and class struggle are reflected in the Bible. I guess my point here is simply "what kind of 'communism' are you accusing Jim of holding to?" Certainly not the violent, oppressive Soviet or Maoist variety. If that is what you mean, then your statement is truly laughable.
The disctinction between Chris, et al and Larry, et al, is rather simple:Should we judge Christianity through the lens of our political views, or judge political views through the lens of our Christianity? The two approaches will rarely lead to the same results.
Gee 4:59, when you put it that way, the right option seems so easy. How can Christians not see that as paramount.
Mr James are you therefore saying that Mr Wallis is a good communist? Do you also believe that communism is the best political and economic system for this country?Where has any type of communism been successful?
Anon 7:44, of course not, as we all know, Wallis is no communist. And no, I'm not saying that "communism is the best political and economic system" for this country or any other. What I am saying is that Marx had ideas that are reflected in scripture and that Wallis could have been pointing that out while not advocating for Soviet Communism, an entirely different historic reality. But, you know what, I think you and Chris both know that. Sometimes the extremes don't help us much. As to the success of "communism," I think you might begin with Acts of the Apostles chapters 2 and 4. But, I bet you knew that as well.
In 1983, Joan Harris from Accuracy in Media, published a lengthy book on the far-left policies of Sojourners and Jim Wallis. She took 53 political positions of Sojourners on such issues as the right of Israel to exist, human rights, terrorism, socialism, capitalism, etc. and compared these positions to the official positions of the Soviet Union.In all 53 position statements, Sojourners' views were in line with the position of the Soviet Union.Harris said, "Sojourners never criticizes a Marxist state...The United States and the West are the only violators of human rights to Sojourners because they are the capitalists. Marxism, by Sojourners defination, cannot violate human rights."Wallis supported the Sandinista communists when they sought to take over Nicaragua in the 1980s. He also whitewashed the cruelty of the revolutionary movement in Latin America. Wallis also supported liberation theology and sided with the Committee in Solidarity with the peopLe of El Salvador, the public relations arm of an El Salvadorian terrorist group known as FMLN.David Noebel wrote an article worth reading: "Tony Campolo, Jim Wallis: The Marxist Delusion and a Christian Evanglist."One of the most scary things is that since the demotion of Jeremiah Wright, Wallis is an advisor of Obama.
Mr James-What Marxist concepts do you and Mr Wallis consider good for this country?
When I have a bit more time, I am going to go the the Bible study resource that I posted about in the first place and "unpack" its message. No one is pushing Soviet Communism! My intention was to share a good study resource, designed for Lenten groups actually. The extreme views coming from a couple of readers is beyond my ability to comprehend. But, you do us all a service by revealing your true attitudes and thought patterns. Amazing, I must say. Oh, and by the way, if you are going to say what you are saying, plesae have the decency and courage to sign you names.
Mr James, if you are not pushing "Soviet Communism", what type of Communism are you pushing? Let me return the favor and ask you to reveal your true attitude. Again, my question, what Marxism or communism do you advocate?Call me "Fake Larry James"
Larry:I share your bewilderment at the radical (pardon the pun) digressions Chris and others often take. Your original post was indeed about a Lenten study series. I think the fact that Chris and others view it as their mission in life to attack those whose political views are suspect to them explains the diversion. Without reading the study you posted about, they simply see "Sojourners" and go on the warpath. As has been pointed out often, their favorite arguments are always arguments ad hominem (That's directed "to the man," and not to the substance of the argument, Chris, et al), which almost aways changes the whole discussion. As has been said before, Chris, if you want to completely change the topic, please get your own blog.
Clearly, some have taken it upon themselves to mimic Pharisaical gnat-straining while trying to do it with the righteous indignation of godliness. The attitude and accusatory baiting of "Fake Larry James" and "Chris" and other anonymous posters is absolutely disgusting. Can such people truly have the love of Christ in them when they choose to attack and tear down people in this way?It's endless thread trolling such as this that make me want to avoid reading the "comments section." I can see no other reason for some of these comments other than to assert political hatred and attack people who seek to do a good work, because of a perceived difference of political thought.It's disgusting and depressing. I put in my vote to require some form of registration for comments.
I noticed Chris never answered Larry's question about whether she has ever actually read Karl Marx. I'm pretty sure I know the answer. As I suspected, Chris's ideas are not only second rate, but second hand as well. Not bothering to read source material, she relies on someone else to form her opinions for her. This explains the repeated ad hominem attacks. To actually respond to the substance of an argument, you have to have some understanding of that substance, which Chris obviously lacks. It's oh-so-much easier to attack people and throw around buzz words. Sloppy, but easier.
Larry, I copied this off of the comments on your post the other day about Tent Cities--it seems to apply here in a most practical way!"My wife and I lost our home and we purchased a fifth wheel and found a campground in the mountains where we took up residence. There was a permanent community of about 70 people and a strong sense of community and helpfulness, nightly campfires and absolutely no criminality. The only drawback came from a greedy and pretentious landlord, a water district, whose lawyers were instructed to constantly nitpick and harass us. In one meeting with the district administrators we were called "one step away from homelessness". They presented their dream: "See if you squatters wouldn't take up the space here, we could have wealthy suntanned and elegant vacationers in modern expensive and shiny motor homes who have second and third homes elsewhere". There were also frequent rent increases and notes that an eviction could be imminent. The morale in the community was adversely affected by the manipulations of the campground owners. As long as a sense of inequality and the ideal of an isolated, slick "me first me only" attitude, promoted heavily by the media, exists, we will never be a worthy civilization. It's all about dignity."Every, human economic system produces suffering!
Anon. 12:18That class you took on ad hominem arguments must have really impressed you!Well, yes, I have read the Communist Manifesto but more importantly I am looking forward to reading "Liberty and Tyranny--A Conservative Manifesto," by Mark Levin. It's an important read since Obama is trying to blackmail the private sector.
Chris:But not Das Kapital?Glad you caught the irony! I doubt Larry and Jim Wallis (though not a participant) appreciate the personal attacks any more than I'm sure you do.
Anon 10:05, I'll speak up for Larry here, anyone who reads this page with any regularity knows that no one is "pushing" any kind of communism. Your question betrays the absurdity of your perspective. Personally, I think your last name is likely McCarthy.
WOW, Larry, they ate me alive when I mentioned communism and Acts 2. Someone, probably one of your Anonymous posters started following me around, calling themselves "Belinda's Troll." There are none so blind as those that will not see.
Post a Comment